tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post524275337448186121..comments2023-11-03T07:37:33.651-05:00Comments on The Vasculum: Fall Fire for Effective Management: Is There a Seasonal Affective Disorder in Prescribed Fire?Justin R. Thomashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07877215479845339584noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-73369806011549693262023-05-06T07:28:21.024-05:002023-05-06T07:28:21.024-05:00Town and Owensby 1984 show the shift from Little b...Town and Owensby 1984 show the shift from Little blue-Junegrass dominance to big blue - Indiangrass dominance over decades of annual spring burning vs. fall/winter. The effect on native C3s is as much to do with many of them being bunchgrasses, whose buds are at the surface and meristems rise above the surface much sooner after initiation of growth than long-rhizomed species (so mid vs. late spring makes a difference for little bluestem), because their meristems stay below the surface later and so theydon't have to activate new buds when their shoot tips are burned off. ...also, the bunchgrasses have much more limited bud reserves to call up, which is another disadvantage compounded by late burning or more than very light and transient grazing. Insights also in Hensel 1923. dlcarterksuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14941789422159003603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-54197038315966371252016-05-06T22:36:37.045-05:002016-05-06T22:36:37.045-05:00Thanks for your questions. I've questioned man...Thanks for your questions. I've questioned many of the fire management folks (in Missouri, at least) and they all say that fire behavior is logistically more convenient in the spring. And, so folks say the fall/winter fires disrupt deer hunting season. Neither reason has anything to do with ecological dynamics.<br /><br />There are many historical eyewitness accounts of native American fire practices from explorers, settlers and scientists. With very few exceptions, they documented these fires in journals with fall/winter dates and/or make comments like "their practice of burning after the first frost/after leaves drop".<br /><br />A colleague of mine knows an Environmental History professor that has been poring over old medical doctor's journals from east-central Kansas; early to mid 1800's. These doctors documented daily weather and included native American fires. They are almost exclusively Oct-Nov.<br /><br />Hope that helps.<br />Justin R. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07877215479845339584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-83800651546254560752016-05-06T21:28:41.989-05:002016-05-06T21:28:41.989-05:00Hi I'm a forest ecologist by training and I ha...Hi I'm a forest ecologist by training and I have some questions. Why have people been so determined to burn in the spring? Is it logistics of burning in that season or is it an attempt to kill woody species when they are breaking dormancy? I know that there has been a switch to growing season burns in upland forest ecosystems in an attempt to kill red maple and others in the understory. <br /><br />How are dormant season burns historically relevant? Do you mean that they were the practice in the past or is there literature somehowing constructing historical fire regimes? How did often and when did native Americans burn?<br /><br />Thanks for the read. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-70091458269331579722016-02-03T09:50:49.266-06:002016-02-03T09:50:49.266-06:00Comments and questions on your summary and ‘put si...Comments and questions on your summary and ‘put simply’:<br />“Others show that late spring and growing season fires increase woody plants like sumac, blackberries and dogwood.”<br />o Sumac was highlighted in the paper summaries though not blackberry and dogwood?<br />o Also what species of blackberry and dogwood are we talking about?<br />“after forbs and C3 grasses break dormancy (late February to early March) their rates of mortality increase with the lateness of burning season”<br />o What about perennial forbs and Carex spp. according to T&C, 2014, and early flowering perennials according to Howe <br />“Spring fire decreases C3 grasses and forbs, favors C4 grasses and increases shrubby species recruitment and densities (carries high potential of net loss to biodiversity)”<br />o The only data presented in the paper comments relating to ‘shrubby species’ was H,H,W,2011on sumac and T&K, 2003 that stated there was ‘no change’ even though there was low density to begin with.<br /><br />“Fall fire increases richness, diversity and productivity of C3 grasses, C4 grasses, and<br />forbs and doesn’t encourage shrubby species”<br />o Seems T&C,2014 stated “Grass biomass remained unchanged from autumn, winter, and spring burns” not sure what that means.<br /><br />There you go, hope it added a little to help you prepare!<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076372813100283046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-3672464969474248542016-02-03T09:47:08.225-06:002016-02-03T09:47:08.225-06:00Here is the next part:
Comments and questions on s...Here is the next part:<br />Comments and questions on summary of papers and data:<br />Towne and Kemp 2003<br />o “woody species showed no change (low density to begin with)”<br /> What species? Are they ‘weedy shrubs’?<br /><br />Towne and Craine 2014<br />o “grass biomass remained unchanged from autumn, winter and spring burns”<br /> Are these C3 or C4 or assumed just a mixture of each?<br />o “spring burns reduced biomass by 50%”<br /> Did the forbs increase in autumn and winter then”<br />o “spring burns had increase in 5 species (average C-value = 4.7)”<br /> Just curious as to what species<br />o “winter and fall saw increase in 6 species (average C-value=6.2)”<br /> Just curious as to what species<br /><br /> Howe 1994 <br />o “spring fire hurts early perennials and encourages late perennials/summer fire hurts late perennials and encourages early perennials”<br />o Do we consider any of these perennials as ‘weedy species’<br />o Do early perennials or late perennials have more of a significant benefit when it comes to plant diversity in this specific area? I guess what I am saying is if you had to choose over late or early flowering perennials what one would you chose and why?<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076372813100283046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-52188407493467426482016-02-03T09:46:02.910-06:002016-02-03T09:46:02.910-06:00Enjoyed reading this summary! Since I had the time...Enjoyed reading this summary! Since I had the time right now, thought I would provide you with some of my thoughts and comments as I was reading the post. This is just a perspective as to what someone in the audience could be thinking as you present the material. By no means do I have a strong background in prescribed burning, nor the mid-western flora anymore. I had to break up my overall response into many replies since it was too big to publish it at one time.So here goes:<br /><br />Comments and questions on your first section before summary of papers:<br />“Through this process, I have found that the increasing utilization of spring burning, as opposed to the more historically relevant application of autumnal anthropogenic burning”<br />• So how long ago did this ‘transition period’ from fall to spring burn occur?<br />“Having observed significant losses in plant diversity and subsequent increases in weedy shrubs like sumac and blackberries in areas where spring fire has reigned supreme, my concern has only grown.”<br />• Yes, its obvious but the negative results of spring fires seem to be LOSS of plant diversity and INCREASE in weedy shrubs (sumac and blackberries)<br />“I'll start the talk with a rundown of why people used to burn and why we burn now.”<br />• I know this is a summary of papers and presentation, but I am thinking what about ‘natural’ wildfires. When do they usually occur or what season? What is the observed result of a natural wildfire during a specific season on plant diversity or on weedy woody species? I would guess the same but do I really know? <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076372813100283046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-26204725236026661762016-01-31T11:15:15.344-06:002016-01-31T11:15:15.344-06:00Thanks for your comments, Quinn. Indeed, "dor...Thanks for your comments, Quinn. Indeed, "dormant season" is a more apt and direct phrasing. Because they used "fall" in most of the papers, I stuck with it. But, the knowledge that winter burning appears to be as, if not nearly as, beneficial as "fall", "dormant season" is a nice summary term. I'll use dormant season from now on given the clarity it does provide to the topic. <br /><br />I've read several papers involving fire in Long Leaf Pine communities. I've gleaned that seasonality is a very different thing in the deep south than it is for the Midwest; with very unique communities defined/initiated sometimes by growing season fires. I think people often confused the kinds of results reported from the south as being possible in the Midwest; proof to me that regional systems should dictate the application of fire. I'm looking forward to seeing your talk on invasives Tan-Tar-A.Justin R. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07877215479845339584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-34634562544097316332016-01-30T11:57:13.865-06:002016-01-30T11:57:13.865-06:00I look forward to the presentation later this week...I look forward to the presentation later this week. Based on the studies reviewed and your conclusions, I am wondering why you focus specifically on fall burning rather that using the term dormant season more generally. The studies reviewed and your conclusions generally seem more consistent with the term 'dormant season.' Late September and early October are fall of course, but many herbaceous species are still non-dormant at these times. <br /><br />Also, there has been some literature on burn season in long-leaf pine savanna communities. I realize it's not Ozark woodlands, but I figure you'd be interested if you aren't already familiar with this literature. This recent issue of the Southern Fire Exchange newsletter discusses and includes links to a few recent fire seasonality studies that do address fire seasonality effects on under story vegetation. http://www.southernfireexchange.org/newsletters/v5-5.pdfQuinn Longnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-76916082029753130662016-01-29T11:56:22.940-06:002016-01-29T11:56:22.940-06:00Towne and Craine 2014
Other
-Carex spp. incre...Towne and Craine 2014 <br /> Other<br /> -Carex spp. increased 8 to 14 percent in autumn and winter<br /> -Carex spp. decreased from 6 to 1 percent in spring<br />Remove the word FROM: it is confusing!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10972001362388240731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-790643076153437762016-01-29T11:23:17.216-06:002016-01-29T11:23:17.216-06:00Yes. Unfortunately, none of the studies looked at ...Yes. Unfortunately, none of the studies looked at population dynamics or reported much in the way of effects on individual species. So we are forced to assume that the decrease in productivity corresponds to decreases in diversity (which it kind of has to) and richness (which it may not, but probably does). Some one really needs to directly test the hypothesis that spring fire decreases C3 graminoid and forb diversity and richness. <br /><br />It is my understanding that the authors of the Konza based research in my post are governed or heavily influenced by the agriculture school as KSU and that they are careful not to shout too loudly about these types of things. A good friend of mine knows Gene Towne really well and has said as much. In fact, because of the Towne and Craine paper, Towne was "let go" from Konza after something like 30 years of employment there for suggesting that spring fire was potentially harmful. He had been trying to say it for decades (thus his earlier work) but he was more or less silenced by the system. I'm glad he finally got the word out, but sad he lost his job over it and that Konza lost a really good manager. It is all rather scandalous.Justin R. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07877215479845339584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-50878434449212496522016-01-29T10:58:34.103-06:002016-01-29T10:58:34.103-06:00In Towne and Kemp 2003, also found that...
-Cool ...In Towne and Kemp 2003, also found that... <br />-Cool season grasses increased 22% in autumn and winter; decreased 5% spring<br />I assume this is regarding productivity!<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10972001362388240731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-2830596380152930582016-01-29T10:04:35.514-06:002016-01-29T10:04:35.514-06:00I agree with your decision: a bird head like me ne...I agree with your decision: a bird head like me needs to be able to grasp concepts with ease...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10972001362388240731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-37329044864448286742016-01-28T21:23:54.490-06:002016-01-28T21:23:54.490-06:00I tried to only use "fall", but didn'...I tried to only use "fall", but didn't make that decision until a few autumns slipped in. I prefer "fall" because it is more descriptive, though "autumn" is certainly more poetic. Justin R. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07877215479845339584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-71428426899065036542016-01-28T19:57:25.685-06:002016-01-28T19:57:25.685-06:00Do you think that consistance with the usage of ei...Do you think that consistance with the usage of either word is necessary? Already the dates bookending the seasons aren't too clear and certainly change every year...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10972001362388240731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-28530574233154676632016-01-28T17:45:45.467-06:002016-01-28T17:45:45.467-06:00The studies don't offer anything as judgmental...The studies don't offer anything as judgmental as "spring fire bad, fall/winter fire good/better", but rather a "spring, winter, fall, summer fire different" stance. In fact, none of the papers pushed or really even addressed the biodiversity loss. Because it was there and blatant, and because it is the question at hand, I have put a spotlight on it. I've always thought summer burning was a bad idea, but have learned through this process that if you had a C4 grass dominated restoration (as there are many such) a summer fire could be very beneficial. <br /><br />That said, despite a thorough search and tons of asking around there do not appear to be any studies to the contrary; just nearly a century of research demonstrating the same phenomena. Justin R. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07877215479845339584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-16163686993605153232016-01-28T17:29:57.249-06:002016-01-28T17:29:57.249-06:00Thanks for catching that. It should be "fall ...Thanks for catching that. It should be "fall and winter".Justin R. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07877215479845339584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-53746902694050629302016-01-28T15:51:13.045-06:002016-01-28T15:51:13.045-06:00Did you find any studies that directly contradict ...Did you find any studies that directly contradict your "spring fire bad, fall/winter fire good/better" assertion?Clairenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8694628190471554133.post-50143695934162144192016-01-28T14:02:34.907-06:002016-01-28T14:02:34.907-06:00In Towne and Craine 2014, 3rd point for forbs:
...In Towne and Craine 2014, 3rd point for forbs: <br />-autumn and fall saw increase in 6 species (average C-value=6.2)<br />The difference between fall and autumn is rather confusing!!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10972001362388240731noreply@blogger.com